CFO Weekly
CFO Weekly

Episode · 3 months ago

62. What It Takes to Be a Sustainable Startup CFO w/ Joel Krutz


Imagine you’ve spent the better part of two decades as a CFO at one of the largest companies in the world. Then, you find a great opportunity in a startup.

Could you handle the transition? 

This week’s guest doesn’t have to imagine. Joel Krutz did just that for a chance to help make the world more sustainable, while still providing value for shareholders, as Chief Financial Officer at Crown Electrokinetics (NASDAQ: CRKN). He joins the show to share the lessons he’s learned from the experience.

In this episode, we discuss:

- What compelled Joel to make the transition

- How an SEC-traded startup requires a CFO who is part engineer, part artist

- How Joel thinks about hiring 

- The role of empathy plays in success as a startup CFO

For more interviews from the CFO Weekly podcast, check us out on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player! 

Presented by Personiv

Welcome back to c FO weekly,where we're talking with financial leaders about how to build efficiency in their teams,create time for strategy and ultimately get results. With your host, Megan Meis,let's jump right in. Today my guest is Joel Krutz. Originally fromNew Zealand, Joel has been developing and leading strategic financial organizations around the worldfor over two decades. Joel is currently chief financial officer of the Clean TechSmart Glass Company Crown Electro Kinetics Corps. Prior to Crown, Joel was CFOOF VIACOM CBS networks international, a two billion dollar division of the Global MultimediaEnterprise. While at via come CBS, Joel at a team which fully overhauledthe financial operating model and guided the business through a period of record growth,diversification and expansion. Before that, Joel held a number of progressive London andNew York based CFO and senior strategic finance roles where he built and developed financialinfrastructure to support businesses through a range of rapid growth, turn around and portfoliooptimization challenges. Joel received a Bachelor of management studies majoring in accounting from WakatoUniversity New Zealand. He obtained his Professional Chartered Institute of Management Accountants Qualification fromthe UK's Association of Chartered Management Accountants and his ctamu certification from Harvard Business SchoolsExecutive Program you'll thank you so much for joining me today. The problem begin. Pleasure to be here today. We're going to be delving into your experiencesas a CFO supporting start up efforts for an established company and as a CFOfor a true startup company, and taking a look at how these two roleshave differed. I'm excited about this topic and learning from your challenges, solet's get started. First, tell us about yourself and how you got towhere you are today. The problem. So, I grew up in ruralNew Zealand on a far which meant a lot of early mornings, hard manualwork and, I guess, in major case of Fomo, which probably explainswell we ended up living in live cities around the world. But it alsoprovided me with a I guess, the lessons and file management, again,that hard work, better understanding the relationship between ourselves and environment, corportation,which I had no idea at the time, were preparing me, I guess,for a later life and operating in a sustainable business such as crown,where I am now. When I left the farm, I did a bachelorof minute management studies and majored in accounting at university and then moved to Londonwhere I started to really learn about finance, business and how to practically apply skills. In London I had a number of roles and companies such as theBBC, BP oil, Bloomsbury publishing and, most significantly, at fire. Butwherever I was working I was always learning and just trying to extract asmuch from every experience, from from from everybody that I encountered, whether itwas studying management decks, rolling through systems manuals or just speaking to people toreally understand what they did, how I...

...could add value and just trying toconnect dots. I spent just over two decades in media, all of itin the international markets. Although I was I was actually based out of NewYork for the last ten years and during that time I became adept and veryfamiliar with operating under high levels of Bollatility, extremely dynamic conditions and then, ultimately, as CFO by a come CBS international, learning how to manage itextremely diverse portfolio international businesses, but I think there were. The one constant'salways been a desire to constantly learn, with a run practice or just maintaininga theoretical understanding of what's going on around me. Sounds like an amazing backgroundand we actually have BP oil in common. I work there first in a long, long time ago to in Chicago. So are there any particular stories ormoves within your career? That's the endout is turning points. A couplespring to mind. So very, very early on, and fact when Iwas first hired by Colm was on a two week basis and I was essedcome in and support the accounts payable department and I've been there for a weekand noticed that there was here a large pile of work on my supervisors discat that just didn't seem to be going anywhere, so I asked what itwas if I could help with it, and it turned out to be theinternational and voices, which he really did not enjoy doing, and I assumedthat responsibility for the remaining part of that half week and it led to thenext nineteen years and fifty fifty weeks that I had at advire calm and Ithink what it. What it taught me was that you always have your eyesopen, lays, be looking to add value and inevitably opportunity will find itsway to you. You just never know when a door is going to openexactly. You know, I think if you've if you've got your your headsmentality right and and are looking around and not just focused on what you're doingbut also looking at that that world that you're interacting with it directly and directly, you have a much greater chance of discovering those doors of opportunity. Another, I guess, move in my career was I'd been CFO of the emergingmarkets for a period of time, which was a really challenging and interesting rolewith a very unique and diverse set of markets, and was then asked tomove into corporate and establish a new finance operations organization, and that that hadthree core buckets of focus. One was leading international finance projects and other wordsintegrating any murder and act acquisition activity from a finance perspective, and the lastone was to turn around under performing finance organizations. And there was no guidancereally, there was there was certainly no timetable and there was there was noprecedent or how I was actually going to...

...execute on the tasks and it wasa it was transformational and a number of respects for me. First of all, I was a true global role so I had the good understanding the scaleof the business of that, you know, on every continent was multimap, multicultural, multi national. So that learning how to interact and to operate withit, you know, very diverse community. As I opening, it taught meto hit the ground running. Like it wasn't really a great deal oflead time for me to get up to speed to really define what I needto do. It was get in there, absorber as much information and turn aroundin a very rapid period of time. And lastly, I I really startedto learn a good deal of the agility and the residency again, becausethere wasn't any real regularity or normality to a day, let alone to aweek, and so having the past be very structured in terms of timetable anddeliverables and then move into this world, it just gave me that sense ofcreating my own timetable and and structure and the need to be able to moveand jump from one task in one field of focus to another, and prettyquick time and that was very helpful and beneficial. As I operated and theInternational for for a couple of decades, I'm sure there must have been challenging. What skills did you draw on to be able to transition from a rolethat was structured into a role that basically had no structure at all? Iprobably learned a lot coming out of rural New Zealand and then having to adaptand code to working and major cities around the world. Right. So againthat desire to learn. Coming from that, that point of view that I knowvery little, I there's a there's an incredible amount. For me too, able to learn and master and having the willingness to just listen and absorbreally helped. When you put into situations, it was very much about building relationshipsquickly and ensuring that you engender the support and partnership from from individuals.You know, it was very much matter of my success in what I wasdoing rely on others who I was either helping to integrate into the business,helping to deliver project work or helping to turn around their their business. Sothat relationship, the ability to build relationships, that willingness to learn and to listen. It gave me an advantage or gave me the abilities. That's agreat point of relationships throughout a career or so so important with covid around.I just sometimes wonder, like how are people going to build those relationships thathelp so many of US along the way? Yeah, I think the the answerthat is still out there somewhere. But what I found the to bevery useful as I think you have to go the extra distance to really understandyour teammates or your partners and get a real sense of their their context andtheir predicament right, because it's very true dimensional. That's remote working. It'sabsolutely the just the possible. But try trying to bring someone into a companyculture knowing when is the right time to... able to ask somebody to goover and above what would be normal facetoface. You can, you can do thatright, you can react real time and you have a sense, butin a remote world I think you have to have that that three dimensional understandingof where they are, their life, what what are. Fact is thatthat having to deal with and if you have that, that sense to thethat that awareness, that I can I think it just helps with that relationshipthat it just helps when you were asking a lot of people. Yeah,it's that's my wife view. Want it anyway. Yeah, I know.I think that's great and I've had people tell me that they've actually gotten toknow some of their coworkers better remotely, just because they are forced to takethe time to get to know them like that. So yeah, I agree. So tell us about crown a bit, about their history, their mission andwhat it is they do. Sounds like a very interesting company. Thatis it is and I feel really blessed to have found crown or ground tohave found me. It's a new clean tech smart Glass Company and and outmission it's to significantly reduce carbon emission levels from one of the largest tributors tothe levels of carbon that are being produced nowadays and that buildings. Our technologyis is labeled thin film technology and it's it has a brand name of dynamictin. came out of hew to Packard originally around fifteen years ago and afterbeing sitting on a shell for a while, it was rediscovered and brought to lifeby Doc Croxel, fearless chairman and CEO. And just very briefly,the the Ip and the technology essentially means that we can suspend electrically charged pegmentbetween two extremely thin layers of transparent film. When that film is then laminated ontoo, any glass surface, it has the ability to be transitioned betweenclear and a dark state in the matter of seconds, two seconds to beprecise, and when it's clear, it's just look like any normal pane ofglass, but in the dark state you can still see through it, youcan still make out what's outside, but it reduces or eliminates nearly all heatand lightweights, and with that we have incredible propensity to reduce the carbon emissionsand any energy costs of any window, whether it's new or, really importantlyfor us, existing, because we have the ability to retrofit for any commercialbuilding. So that's what our first product is going to be. In wewere we're developing an insert which thin piece glass without technology laminated onto it,has a frame with magnets in that frame and then it will snap onto theinside of a window within a building. So I'm standing in at twenty fivestory building here and Los Angeles, and this building has roughly three thousand windowsthat we would install three thousand about devices into those frames and those devices willbe powered by a lithium ion battery which in turn is powered by solar paneloutside. So it's completely renewable and importantly, that method doesn't need to be quiredinto a building either. It will wirelessly communicate the other two thousand ninehundred and ninety nine devices in the building... well as with the building managementsystem. So once you have these devices in place, you can decide whetheryou're going to essentially synchronize all of your windows to be dark and to befully blocking out there the light and the heat, or whether you're going togive somebody sitting at a window local match so that they can adapt or adjustthe the tempting to their own desire. But what we've seen without initial fieldfild tests, is that implementing these these devices and our technology can save twentysix percent of energy costs and the building, given the building account for seventy sixpercent of the energy utility and around forty percent of primary energy. That'sit's stary amount of potential. So all done in a very cost effective manner, and you can see why I'm so passionate about this. anythink about thispoint in time, where we stand, now that you in climb a reportwhich was recently released, which was very depressing and essentially said that we're we'renow set for the next thirty years a world that's really going to be heatingand waters are going to be rising. But it also really put the ownersback on society to start to reduce these levels of carbon emissions and sure thatit's it's bought under control over the next few decades. And there's a worldof regulations that are starting to be brought to bear. The SEC is looksseems to be very close to having ESG metrics included and MK public reports fromcompanies and the current level of SG reporting, which is it's it's fluent, there'sno there's no set standards. What's that regulates? Are about to rollout a whole set of European and international regulations which will standardize and really clarifywhat constitutes an appropriate level of carbon emissions or other earst you measures, andI think that's that is really going to compel businesses buildings to really look atproducts like dynamic ten here at Crown and what's like the payback period on theinvestments? How long does it take to recoup that in utility savings? Sothe other few the of this. Outside of the the technology is the businessmodel. So a business for a building such as this with the three thousandwindows, would cost around two and a half million dollars to put these devicesin and every window, which is a substantial capital outlay down. But thebeauty of our devices is that we can actually lease these because they're not fictionsand fittings. They snap in with a magnetic frame and they can be snappedout as well. So once you start to think about spreading the cost ofthis investment over ten years, it really reduce the amounts of operating costs onan annual basis. So inside of one year we would expected the payback tobe less than nine months. Wow, that's amazing, really fascinating products.So let's discuss your role specifically and and what were you brought in to accomplish? Why? See, my role here is part engineer or scientist and partartist. I have to build the appropriate infrastructure that's for where the company's going, not for where the company is right now. By that I mean createan organization, institute, Controls Systems and...

...sure that the demands that are requiredby the SEC because we are that rear thing which is a publicly listed startup, pre revenue, but all of that infrastructure, processes, etc. That'svery much the engineering and the science component of my role. The art isdetermining how would go about implementing the structure in a manner that propels the companyfor rather than creates friction. Sometimes be the way. There was a wellintentioned but somewhat over zealous finance function. Can it really can't slow things down. I can. It can put a lot of administration and bureaucracy and theway the business and that can be leave them in a start up right there'sis absolutely a right place for the controls, absolutely a right place for process,but there has to be a fine level of judgment as to the leveland the timing with which those are implemented. So, for instance, we haveto institute a control of our absolutely what I would aim to do isjust to ensure that I give the company the comfort and the awareness that thesecontrols are in place and ensure that it empowers employees, and by that Imean they have the appropriate freedom to go forth and make decisions and to executebecause they know expectations. It shouldn't be seen as a restrictive or complication ordelaying and that that comes through spending a lot of time with the team reallyunderstanding the mission and balancing that financial infrastructure with what the the mission critical elementsof business are. I think in addition to that, the role here isimplementing best in class structures and processes and business support. But I'm also intentwith the product like hows that I engineer ESG awareness and to our financial andmanagement processes, that we establishing meaningful, true metrics to track our progress performancewith it in terms of the carbon impacts, show that we have a sustainable procurementprograms, employee welfare, etc. That such a really walk the walkin this industry. I'm quite an idealist, mean but I really want that leftcrown be seen as a global leader, not just in smart glass technology andreducing carbon emissions, but also how we operate, manage and measure oursuccesses on sustainable basis. I think that will that will pay tremendous rewards interms of the talent can bring into their organization. I think it'll also showthat our mission and our cultures it's paramount to the team. It's a boldgoal and roll, but it's exciting just your comment about, you know,attracting young talent. I think it's so important, like you mentioned, fororganizations to be socially impactful these days and to be making a difference, whichit sounds like crown is doing or intending to do. Yeah, you look, I think it's it's a it's a very challenging talent market right. There'sa lot of competition and I absolutely think that we've got an advantage being inthe asg realm, being a sustained, anable product developer, and we absolutely, as I said, into it will... very clear once people come intothe company and they could see that it's purely superficial, that is not goingto allow you to retain talent bright and that that will still very quickly becomeclear in the marketplace as well. So it's an imperative for us. Ijust I really don't see how businesses can can avoid that. And what havebeen your biggest challenges since transitioning to that? Your role at a crown for thestartup will part from dragging my family from the east host of the WestCoast. I think the combination of being an SEC reporting CFO prerevenue start upmeans that you're you're operating at the extremes of the spectrum. Really. Onemoment you're presented to investors, the next year you're proofing through a pretty substantialk disclosure document and then the next year filling out an expense claim for anew starter to the ranges is quite jarring. But again, I've always I've alwaysthought that you you learn best when you walk a mile in someone else'sshoes, and so if I'm building an infrastructure, I want to experience everyelement first to know shure what I'm talking about and then eventually asking others toto actually do. And what are the skills that you think a CFO needsto be able to thrive in a start up environment? I don't think there'sa specific skill set. I think you you need to be able to drawupon multiple skill sets, but I guess if there is one skill set,it's knowing when to draw upon and apply each of your skill sets, ifthat makes any sense. What I mean is you can't you can't always relyon an accounting or an analytical or a controller driven approach. It's far morenuanced and again it comes back to that that requirement of of part engineer scientistand part artist. I think, to be honest, it's it's more acase of character than skill sets. You you have to be adaptable, youhave to be resilient and you've got to be very proactive. You can't alwaysexpect it to be people around you to be giving you that guidance or bounceideas off are absolutely there will be the opportunity to that, but it's notalways going to be there and you need to be able to move quickly.So you have to have that that judgment and that confidence and your decision makingand I think their combination of character and knowing how to draw upon your experience. Senor these rule they will put you in good step. So in yourprevious role you helped an established company start up new divisions and geographical locations ingeneral. How does working at a true start up differ from your role atViacom? In the stablish company, this somewhat of a set formula. It'sinfrastructure, places resources to lean upon, but in general this precedent right.There might be some unique elements to it, but there's a there's a playbook ofsorts that you can you can generally refer to. I think there's alsoa lot of time that it's spent dealing with the administration and in some somerespects that bureaucracy that is an essential component of large and established companies. Andthere's also a lot of time and energy that has to be invested in drivingchange. You have to ensure that you...

...get the sponsorship on board the ChangeHearts and minds before you even begin the change. That level of energy andemotion that has to be invested in front is its substantial and it's necessary.If I then contrast that with start out world, clearly is there's very littleinstructure in place. There is very little in the way of precedent or guidanceor an understanding as to how best you approach or prioritize the work or thetask at at hand. So it goes back to that point I make beforeabout you need to have a high level of judgment. You've got to haveconfidence in your abilities and then your your capability to make the right decisions andyou also you really do need to have a very good level at their empathy. It's really understand your founders, really understand your executive team and understand howyou can help them be successful in a very fluid basis to because obviously thingsare moving at a very quick rate. It's very dynamic and trying to betwo, three steps ahead of where everybody else is this heading. I thinkit's critical skill setting, that it takes a while to develop, but that, I think it's is how you will be successful. There is skating towhere the park is going to be and building that infrastructure and that that supportfor six, twelve, three years down the line. That's what I'm tryingto do anywhere. On the other big differences that I am really love andwe're night. He's to work every day. A yeah, how does your familylike the West Coast compared to the East Coast? This is quite asurreal place to work, to drop in, but they love the space, theylove the the weather, they loved the swimming pool. So it's thatthat actlamating what we're not suitable podcast for. You know, what we're doing atthe moment is is just really a value, whether I we live hereor whether I do this work by coastally. And I think we came out hereinitially thinking that it was just going to be a trial period, butit looks more and more likely than the family work, be going back tothe East Coast for an extended period of time. Well, I guess ifthere's one good thing that's come out of Covid it's likes ability to be ableto do things like that. Yeah, as one benefit I do have myfamily that are are very supportive and my wife has really successfully managed to workremotely. Yeah, you just have to look at this as an opportunity todo and explore in a way that you haven't or you can't normal times withthe school year and with work commitment. We make the most of it.So did crown find you or did you find them here? Somebody from theboard reach starts. This was a an opportunity that I might be interested in. It didn't seem like an obvious opportunity. Wrong coast, right into public company, reporting brand new sector. But as a company, where part ofour culture it's that we have a hiring process that involves as many people asit needs to, and in my case it was a lot. I spoketo board members, spoke to all of the executive team. So it wasit was around nine rounds of interviews, but with every interview the interests andthe enthusiasm and the understanding of the potential...

...just just really grow. It's avery rare opportunity where you come into a start up, a startup the publiclystthat, but also a startup that has such a limited potential really to dosomething that's so beneficial for the planet but also, the same time, hasso much potential to generate shithold of value. It was an extraordinary oft on.Yeah, as I said earlier, I'm just very, very thankful andappreciative that it's it's found its way to my door and talk to US specificallyabout the allocation of capital and how that differs between your CFO role with vicomand your curren CFO role at crown. Yeah, that's night and day.Yeah, it's a vast majority of my time at the large companies, suchas by from CBS, cash management wasn't targeted at a level that you eitherfelt responsible for already capable of influencing. A lot of decision making happens atcorporate, which makes an absolute sense, through the Treasury team. So itwas as a divisional CFO. You obviously have targets and it's part of yourmetrics, but it was far more focused on growing the revenue profitability more sothan the actual cash management. Certainly had no sense of the the cost ofcapital within the within the company and the strict strategy teams that always apply percentageto our proposals, but to this day I'm not quite sure what that evercorrelated to. That's the main focus for me when it came to advocation ofcapital really was optimizing the portfolio. Are just ensuring that we were deploying investmentbetween businesses with either the highest returns yields or those that had the highest potential. And obviously, there the contrast of that was pulling resource from from businesseswhere that potential has have reached its Zeni if I now contrast that with thestartup. It's the lifeblood here. It's daily monitoring now our cash for determininghow we're tracking, understanding how we have to course correct. Every single paymentis scrutinized and that were you know, we're being super frugal and and allaspects apart from those that business critical, such as hiring talent and obviously puttingthe the rd into our product and also into our customer discovery process. Inaddition to the daily Focus, we're always looking down down the road with theview to how we and support that investment infrastructure, talent acquisition as well.So it's a constant balance between that, that day to day catch management andthen strategic capital plan. It's critical and as a great Tu Challenge, onethat I'm really enjoying. I'm sure that procuring the capital must be Mainin Dayas well. So can you talk to us about the specific challenges you've faceda crown and how you're overcoming them or how you've overcome them? Well,I was blessed and that I arrived at Crown Post IPO. We went publicat the beginning of January, or sorry, the the end of January this year, and we have a passionate base of investors who family believe in theproduct and management and mission, and that means that we have a runway,which is not always something that start ups have available to them, but it'sobviously a finite and that was was never...

...the case with a with a largecorporate organization. The funding, the cash capital was always assumed to be availableand nontap as long as the the cause was worthy requirements were met. Butthere's a high by high level of responsibility that we have to our invests ensurethat that capital that they're intrusting us with to grow crown and ensure that we'redelivering on our mission and our product. And you know, I feel thatthat they're very personal that responsibility. So we have a lot of discussions withour investors. We keep them well updated on progress and expectations and obviously theytheir full transparency and visibility into how we're allocating at that capital. It's ait's a healthy bit of pressure awareness that they have. That that keeps USoperating things and the management and an optimal manner. And what advice would yougive others affo is who are stepping into the role at a start up?What surprises did you experience along the way? I think before you step into therole, do your diligence on the team, regardless of how tough thecircumstances may or may not be. It's very really going to be the teamthat dictates your success. So the executive team, the founders, anything thatyou can do to obviously research or ask questions of front and that interview process. You know, you really are interviewing the company on an equal basis tothem interviewing you. When you get in to start up, be prepared tobe constantly distracted. You know, I think there's is a comfort as sureit's having a good timetable and schedules to check through and to check off,but your initial timetable is is really going to be start work, deal withwhatever gets thrown at you, finish work and read a lot. You know, I think something that I really love about crown is that we have amandated reading list which we prescribe no rules. Rules that the Netflix story by readhastings working backwards, which is Amazon's operating prestigures. And then we havesome some very start up focused books, such as the lean start up,but most compellingly, four steps to the epiphany that that's really our Bible withthat. That, to us, represents our approach to going to market,which is very much a customer focus rather than just assuming that your product isgoing to go out there and people are going to be accepting with ours right, you really do need to understand your market and your customs. But Ilove the fact that we're we're readers and that we learners and that we're alsoappliers of what we're learning. And any employee actually should look to factor.And Yeah, I love the required reading list. I think it inspires alifelong love of learning. It's important to keep reading even when you're long donewith school. Yeah, it's actually we have when we're evaluating talent and lookingto bring into budgeos and we we have three bars that we we are some. The clear one is obviously the your...

...competence, that you're going to beperforming the work that are very high standard. That's almost table stakes. The secondis that you have a passion for standability, right, that you genuinelybelieve in our mission and you don't just live better work, but that youalso live it in your life and fair early, that you are a lifelonglearner, that be continuing studies, whether it be reading, you know,it really is important to us that you're curious and you have a desire toconstantly better yourself and to continually improve, and I mean think there is muchwrong wrong with that as a as a set of requirements. Yeah, Ithink those three great things to be looking for. I'm sure you must finda lot of a lot of great talent when you're looking at those three.So, as a CFO, what is keeping you up at night these days? I think care the next beer market. You know, I have to beaware of what that's going to mean. We've obviously been in a fairly bolishand buoyant market for some time, but obviously gravity will will generally prevailand you know you don't have the same insulation in a in a small growingbusiness as you do in a large established so just thinking about how that's goingto impact the business model, house, impact out customer base, capital markets, all of those, those elements, not that you can influence a lot, but it's certainly having that in mind and Stide to think about contingencies.Something that I do contemplate a lot of operating in an in this new sector. So the ear is g sector, it's just exploding at the moment.Is there's an incredible amount of is you funds. All of the major fundsare mentating at a huge portion of their investment now has to have the ISGstamp within it. And again what, as I see, if I canI do to make the most of that and to ensure that, you know, we're staying abreast of regulatory changes, shifts again and customer tastes. It'sa very fluid and dynamic state. Just being very aware of the external environment, something that I'm really focused on, because you can get wept up andthe internal world of building this business and and building this structure, but it'sin critically. You have a heads up entiality here and looking around competitive forces, looking around regulatory forces, as well as the the general landscape. Andlast year, it's just maintaining balance my life. Just again, when youdive into something like this, can be or can choo if you let itconsuming. But I have a young family, the support of wife, and Ineed to make sure of that my allocations time and energy is appropriately balanced. I'm getting better at that every day. I have a lot of work todo. Yeah, I'm sure that can't be easy. I mean beinga CFO is challenging enough, let alone first startup company. Yeah, Joel, thank you so much for being my guest today. I enjoyed it methank you very much. Yeah, I really enjoyed speaking with you and hearingabout your experiences and the resulting insights and I appreciate your time today and Iwish you and crown the best. It...

...sounds like you guys are going todo great things. Very much. It's all of our listeners please tune innext week and until then, take care. If you're ready to boost efficiency andstreamline your accounting processes at significant cost savings, it's time to talk withpersonive. Their people powered solutions have transformed the delivery of back office tasks andgeneral accounting functions for decades, partnering with clients to provide everything from accounts payableto payroll services. See What personive can do for you by visiting PERSONIVECOM.You've been listening to cefo weekly, presented by Personi. Please subscribe wherever youget your podcast to hear all of our episodes. Want to learn more,check out personivecom. Thanks for listening.

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